Total Mayhem: Totally deleted? Everyone vote!

[Sokko]

Caution: If you click "View Results", you will not be able to vote!

Read the "Dave's rantings" topic for more info on this debate. Note that this poll ONLY includes a proposal to delete Total Mayhem entirely, meaning that pointless garbage would no longer be allowed anywhere. It does not specify what would happen with the poll feature, or any other related issues. Plan proposals (such as Dave's) can go in the above-mentioned discussion thread, but we only need to worry about those if the vast majority actually votes for deletion.

The argument for:
Think about it. What purpose does this forum serve? We have General Blabber, which is for miscellaneous chat, and then we have Total Mayhem, which is for... nothing, apparently, except spammers who like to artificially inflate their post counts. The few intelligent posts here could just as easily be put in GB. The "NO RULES" theme caters to spammers, which is something I'll never understand. It's like having one whole state in the US where breaking the law is perfectly okay and even encouraged. If you have rules in place to ensure good behavior, they should be in effect on all forums, all the time, no exceptions.

...

The spammers and garbage posters would be left with nowhere to go. They would have to either start posting intelligently (what a terrible fate!), not post at all, or be met with the banhammer if they tried to continue their garbage.

...

We do have other forums here. The kind of thinking that is encouraged in TM tends to carry over to other areas. There's a reason that these kinds of forums only exist on other web sites as a permanently-locked "Spam Vault" that serves as an example of what not to post.


The argument against:
I don't read Total Mayhem most of the time myself. I come in to see what the topics are, just in case I need to deal with anything, but I almost never read them (that's why I hired Hammered!). I recommend those who don't like meaningless crap do the same!

That's why it's here... it's just like if I added, for some reason, a Nascar forum. Don't read it if you don't care about Nascar! All you're missing is talk about Nascar. All you're missing if you don't read Total Mayhem is meaningless garbage! Hammered has even moved a topic or two from Total Mayhem to General Blabber because they were too coherent for this forum.

Really, it's like bad TV shows - you have the remote in your hands, use it!

[Mr.Zee]

Maybe we should keep it a little stricter, with rules such as, "Meaningless garbage posts and pointless topics will be deleted ON SIGHT."

[Hammered]

Jamul wants people to be able to use this forum, so I think we should keep it. I have to read all this stuff to make sure everyone is behaving, so I am sure it is more annoying to me than it is to those of you who don't read it.

Suggestion to you Spammers:
Try to avoid annoying the others in order to keep referendum issues like this from passing. To accomplish this:
1. Clearly label your Spam with the word Spam in a prominent position in the title
2. If you must Spam, do it in an existing Spam topic rather than creating a new one.

[Dave Hettel]

Although I agree with Sokko, I think there are better ways to accomplish the suggested effect of deleting the forum.

I found this cool mod on the phpBB website which creates another membergroup which would allow users access to Total Mayhem. There is no need for moderator approval to join the group, so those who want to see the forum can, and those who don't needn't. If I find the page again, I'll post it.

[Jamul]

I found this cool mod on the phpBB website which creates another membergroup which would allow users access to Total Mayhem. There is no need for moderator approval to join the group, so those who want to see the forum can, and those who don't needn't. If I find the page again, I'll post it.

Okay, I do have one theory on this, but I have to ask to see what the truth is, because I really don't understand it. Why is it that you who don't want to see Total Mayhem can't just avoid clicking on it?

[Sokko]

I don't believe that question applies to me, since I'd be happier seeing TM completely deleted, and I've already stated my argument for this. I'd also be interested in seeing Dave's reasoning, since no amount of hiding things away will ever solve anything. It's like sweeping the trash under the carpet.

Another thing I'd be interested in hearing about, Jamul, is your particular reasons for keeping Total Mayhem around. I assume you must think that it accomplishes something, because otherwise it would be long gone. What, exactly, does this board do that is critical to the operation of a healthy forum community?

But since I suspect we'll be keeping this thing around for a while longer (the vote is tied now), a step in the right direction would be a mod that makes posts in a certain forum not count towards your total. That would be much more effective than simply removing the post count display, since posts are still tracked and show up in the member list.

EDIT: Clever trick with the ???. You can still sort the list by total posts and Top Ten Posters, though. I think a better solution would be (if it exists) a mod of the type described above, since making post counts meaningless seems like a real sledgehammer solution. Postcount is not just a vanity attribute, it is (in most forums) a viable way of judging the experience of a given member, since you can reliably assume that almost all of their posts represent an intelligent contribution.

[Jamul]

Same question applies to deletion - why, if you don't like the content of Total Mayhem, does it have to go away? Why can't you just not click on it? This, I do not understand. What does this board do that is critical to ruining your day?

Total Mayhem exists so that people have a place to post things that are meaningless. It will remain here for that purpose. People who don't want to see it can avoid looking at it with great ease. Post counts will remain gone because they've become SUCH an issue with so many people. If they don't exist, then nobody can get excited about having so many, or try to increase it. It's really disappointing to me. First I had to remove the really fun user titles I used to have because they got people posting garbage like crazy, and now it's so ridiculous I can't even leave the post counts visible! And I really worked hard on those titles, and I really liked them.

By the way, the only reason there ever were post counts is that phpbb doesn't offer a way to not show them. So I hacked them out by hand. I have no interest in showing that info. The only purpose it has is so that people can put "EDIT: 400 posts!" at the end of their posts. Which is noise.

We're all here to have fun. People who want to have fun with pointless crap, I have a place for you. Partake and enjoy! People who hate it, ignore it please!

FUN. Remember that simple 3 letter word. Stop being so hung up on everything! These forums are doing absolutely great except for one tiny thing: all the posts complaining about how these forums are doing! Whether it's this business about how Total Mayhem is causing the earth to spiral into the sun, or the endless stream of chastisements that appear every time someone bumps an old topic (which I then have to go through and delete before I can unbump the topic... thanks for the help), or all the other pseudomodding that goes on. Stop worrying about what other people are doing! You don't have to read what doesn't interest you. I'll handle the bumping, I'll handle topics in the wrong forums, I'll handle spamming. That's why I'm here. You guys don't know about 9/10 of the bad posts that occur, because I handle it. Serious spam, serious trouble - porn, profanity, long strings of garbage. You don't have to police anything, and you don't have to read anything you don't like.

We've got people of all ages here with vastly different interests. You're just going to have to learn to accept the differences. If you are under the impression that the other forums would somehow magically be more to your liking if Total Mayhem disappeared, you're dead wrong. Kids are kids. I control things as well as I feel comfortable doing (I could go all gestapo on everybody, but that would not be FUN for anyone, that little word again), and sometimes I even cross a line that I regret later. I delete a whole lot of posts, and it's a fine line. Sometimes I leave stuff that strays way off-topic, other times I snip things that are probably not so bad. I do what I can. My goal is to keep the game-related forums on track and informative, and the other forums off track and uninformative.

I'm not saying you can't talk about whether Total Mayhem should exist or not, I'm just saying A> don't read it if you don't like spam, and B> this kind of stuff is noise. Why waste your time on it? I'm not going to anymore. I shouldn't have posted so much as it is!

[interokio]

I am not good at writing long posts like all you so I wont even try.

I agree with Jamul on this one, There's no point in looking at Total Mayhem for some, and for some its a gate way to the Spamming Heaven those Spammers want. Once again you can easily avoid it if you are one of the anti-spammers then good cause I hate spam, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

If the spam and crap is somewhere that I cannot see, then I'm pretty ok with that, but if Jamul starts to put up spam (not that he would) along the sides or the top of the screen, then this site would probably not exist on my Computer.

If people want it there, it Shall be there....Amen


(that was sorta long, (pat on back for me!))

[Dave Hettel]

Why is it that you who don't want to see Total Mayhem can't just avoid clicking on it?
Not clicking on it would just quarrel with my curious nature, and by clicking it, it fills my more instinctive nature, but the spam then makes me mad.

Curse my nature and everything involved with it! :P

[SpiderPumpkin]

We should keep Total Mayhem for "crazy" stuff and list threads and such. Now that the post counts are "gone", there's no real reason to spam anymore anyway, thus maybe making TM a better place where someone would actually want to click the threads.

[drgamer]

True, True!
Definatly changes things

[Sokko]

Total Mayhem exists so that people have a place to post things that are meaningless.

Unfortunately for my argument, the idea of such a place conflicts with my perception of reality. If a post is meaningless, then by definition it is also pointless. If a post is pointless, it has no reason to exist. Thus, if a forum is dedicated solely to pointless posts, it also has no reason to exist. The fact that something nearby has no reason to exist, yet continues to do so, pretty much irks the **** out of me.

Same question applies to deletion - why, if you don't like the content of Total Mayhem, does it have to go away? Why can't you just not click on it? This, I do not understand. What does this board do that is critical to ruining your day?

I asked first. :P Though I believe I already explained the reasons behind my argument, and what this board does that assists in ruining not just my day, but everyone's. Knowing you, you probably don't want to hear it again, and at this point my argument is irrelevant anyway because nobody is ever going to convince you.

Whether it's this business about how Total Mayhem is causing the earth to spiral into the sun

I don't think the problem is as serious as you're making us out to be making it out to be (if that made any sense). In my opinion, it is a problem, but it's not like the forum is going to collapse tomorrow if we don't take care of it. The issue has significantly diminished in importance since post counts have been removed, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens for a while longer. And since, as I said, you're never going to be convinced that there's a problem in the first place (who knows, maybe there isn't anymore), you might as well lock this topic. I promise to keep quiet on the issue unless someone else brings it up.

[Coolguy]

I think Total Mayhem can stay. Not all TM posts are spam! The total story game, polls, etc. all have meaning! I hate spam like everybody else, but as long as spam stays in spam topics, I think it's okay.

Overall, I still think spamming should stop, but the entire TM forum doesn't have to be deleted.

[Bearly]

I think it is very sad that Jamul has had to do all this work to try & make people happy. I don't like spam but TM is the only board you really get it in, all the other boards are spam free.

I've gotten used to realising if a topic is spam or not before I click on it by the name of the topic & the person who has started the topic. I also keep an eye on peoples post count and see if they have joined recently and then very soon have lots of posts then I don't take much interest in what they say because I realise they've probably posted a lot of garbage (although newbies do need a lot of help with the games). I'm disappointed that the posts have gone but if thats the way its got to be then I can live with that. :(

At the end of the day this is Jamuls company and what he says goes. I respect him & I think he does a great job of both making the games & keeping this place going (there is a lot of background work involved I'm sure which none of us see).

I hate spam, I hate junk faxes, junk emails and junkmail! BUT I just try to ignore it and get on with what I want to do.

(P.S. If anyone gets as many credit card applications etc as I do in the post & offers for loans which I do not want, I have found a way which has seen a decline in number coming through my lettterbox. Any which have a freepost envelope in them in which you have to return the completed form, I rip up the form and details and post them back to the people in their freepost envelope! :) Marvellous!)

Ok I've gone on long enough - time to go visit the other boards & play some games!! :)

[pizza]

Spam has to have a place to go, too. :(

[Mr.Onion]

Do you know what?
On the 30th of July 2005 not one topic existed on the internal running of this forum (and if my dates are correct, MM3 just finished.)
Everyone was chatting away about Dr. L and the rest and absolutely nobody was complaining.We had our post count and everthing.

I wish for the forum to be restored to how it as a month ago. If that happened, I, and probably a few other people, would be very happy.

Who arose the subject of the futility of TM's existance? Sokko? Hammered? Jamul? :?

[CatWoman]

I've gotten used to realising if a topic is spam or not before I click on it by the name of the topic & the person who has started the topic.
Yeah, me too!

[General_Josh]

I voted no, but I dont like spam topics they should be locked on sight.

[kidmystik101]

but if we delete TM, the spammers will go to general blabber

[WackieWatty]

but if we delete TM, the spammers will go to general blabber

The point is that if the spammers start in General Blabber, they get banned.

[AtkinsSJ]

But isn't banning people too much hassle? Why not just leave everything as it is.

I agree with Mr Onion. Someone brought this subject up, and changed the forum for the worse. Pretty soon, there'll be more anti-Total Mayhem topics than spam ones. And that makes no sense!

People, you've made your point. Now pack up and go home!

[Sokko]

I packed up and went home about two days ago, and requested a lock on this topic. I have no idea why it's continuing to be discussed, since it's obvious that Jamul is sticking to his opinion no matter how many arguments we throw around. The last thing I want is for loads of people to start resurrecting the subject and shooting accusatory looks at one side or the other, as if anyone had done something wrong.

Someone brought this subject up, and changed the forum for the worse.

Really? When did that happen? I don't see any changes that could be called "worse" than what we had before.

[Mr.Onion]

well if Jamul is sticking to a very attacked opinion then I won't buy his games! :twisted: I was intending to buy the most expensive game too! :twisted: (again)

I've got it!
The trouble is, by not allowing garbage in TM, the spammers would post garbage in other forums.

And then we could ban them and delete all their garbage (since they're breaking the rules), and the forums would be a better place for it.

In my opinion, Total Mayhem should be deleted. Completely and permanently. Think about it: What purpose does this forum serve? We have General Blabber, which is for miscellaneous chat, and then we have Total Mayhem, which is for... nothing, apparently, except spammers who like to artificially inflate their post counts. The few intelligent posts here could just as easily be put in GB. The "NO RULES" theme caters to spammers, which is something I'll never understand. It's like having one whole state in the US where breaking the law is perfectly okay and even encouraged. If you have rules in place to ensure good behavior, they should be in effect on all forums, all the time, no exceptions.

[snip]

In summary: Delete Total Mayhem. The whole thing, not just all the posts in it. If you're really attached to the poll feature, create a nice orderly Poll Center. Spampocalypse II can't come soon enough.
I know that is a ridiculusly long quote but I've just figuired out that Sokko arose the issue that had been created by Dark Lord Farley (dramatic chords :D )

Also all the "Spamming" is perfectly legitimate in TM but nowhere else. Because:
3. NO SPAM OF COURSE! Spammers will be banned instantly, and their spam deleted. In this context, Spam means advertising.

[simibhu]

Sure. =\